Obama
I saw Obama has raised more money than Hilary. I'm thinking about contributing to him. Lots of politics to pay attention to, lets get back into it!
posted by Victor Laszlo @ 4/04/2007
13 comments
Liberal Malcontents
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Wednesday, April 04, 2007
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13 Comments:
Victor, you're wasting your money if Obama does not QUICKLY distance himself from MoveOn.org, which is arguably a hate organization because of the following.
In 2005, MoveOn.org published an official cartoon of Pope Benedict waving a gavel in front of the U.S. Supreme Court. MoveOn's Action Forum, with the full knowledge and approval of its moderators, welcomed hate speech that used "Jew" as an epithet (to describe a Democratic Senator), called Tom Lantos (another Democrat) a "whining, arrogant Jew," and called for the arrest and imprisonment of the "Catholic Pedophiles of America." An entire dossier of the MoveOn Action Forum hate speech and 9/11 conspiracy theories--which is available online--requires three or so Web pages to display all of it.
It is very important to note that it is on record that MoveOn.org's moderators (contrary to MoveOn's press release of September 2) knew about, welcomed, and tolerated the hate speech while censoring criticism of racists like Al Sharpton and also the hate speech itself.
If Obama does not distance himself from this group quickly, his personal character and his fitness to hold any office (including U.S. Senator) will be open to question. You might want to hold off until you see what he is going to do about this problem, rather than wasting money on someone whose candidacy will be derailed by connections to what is arguably a hate organization.
It gets even worse; even the anti-war Left has turned on MoveOn.org by accusing it of fabricating a poll and misrepresenting its members' antiwar views. Cindy Sheehan published the following, which Michael Moore repeated as a "must-read" on his Web site. "A month ago I wrote that MoveOn began efforts to support "slow bleed" while antiwar forces actively opposed it. Recently MoveOn fabricated a biased push-poll in which “85%” of respondents supported “slow bleed”; however, the 96% of the MoveOn members who favor withdrawal, and who were not offered a vote on that option, refused to participate in a sham. Congressional sources report that the spurious MoveOn poll, together with intensive bullying and bribing, was used to erode the principled opposition of congressional progressives."
If Barack Obama wants to continue to associate himself with a group that apparently fabricates polls while sponsoring anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic hate speech along with 9/11 conspiracy theories, what happens to his candidacy will be entirely his own fault. I would not donate money to someone whose candidacy is likely to collapse by the end of summer.
Yeah, Vic.
Don't you know that Obama is linked to MoveOn, and that MoveOn is a bunch of limp-wristed, Socialist Commies that hate America?
It'd be much better if you give that contribution to real progressives, like Newt Gingrich.
(Geez, why do these trolls bother?)
On a serious note, are you feeling the odacity of hope? I think the guy will probably turn out to be pretty much of a centrist, but it would be worth seeing what would happen if the Dems ran someone with more charisma than a bump on a log.
Dumplingeater wrote, "It'd be much better if you give that contribution to real progressives, like Newt Gingrich."
No, it would be better to contribute to real Democrats who do not associate themselves with hate organizations. If Obama manages to win the primary, you are likely to end up with someone like Newt Gingrich in the White House, because Jews and Catholics who would normally vote Democratic pull the Republican lever because of MoveOn.org.
Wingy,
Maybe you aren't a troll?
You're wasting your time here if you think that what you're posting about MoveOn is going to get any traction. It won't.
It's possible that you might get some reasonable debate about whether it makes sense for Dems to support a centrist like Clinton - but if you're making arguments like the one that Obama is an extremist, it's highly improbable that you will have any credibility with anyone who has been a contributer here in the past.
Wingy,
Funny for you to drop in and try these games as if the last 18 months have not happened. Face it, focus on issues, not propaganda got your guys booted out. Now, take a deep breath, look at the status of your heroes and re-evaluate your view of centrist thinkers. Then, show with links all the things you reference in your note, from the moveon.org site. If you won't do that, then run back to the other side, lick your wounds, and try to figure how how to avoid historians labelling the W years as America's brief, but extremely damaging dark ages.
Oh yeah, Obama needs to explain that experience is less important than an ability to listen and manage from the middle.
I didn't say Obama was an extremist, but I do think he needs to distance himself from MoveOn.org.
The facts speak for themselves. MoveOn did publish the derogatory cartoon of the Pope, and it did welcome hate speech (and 9/11 conspiracy theories) at its Action Forum. MoveOn's exercise of editorial control (that is the key phrase) over the Action Forum makes it responsible for the content.
Also, the LEFT like Cindy Sheehan, backed by Michael Moore, says MoveOn.org is misrepresenting its members. If Obama sticks with MoveOn.org, he will lose not only centrist Democrats who might otherwise vote for him, but also the antiwar left.
The Impenetrable One wrote, "Then, show with links all the things you reference in your note, from the moveon.org site." I can't link to the hate speech itself because MoveOn took down the entire Action Forum (because of the hate speech scandal), but otherwise your wish is my command. This is still online:
http://www.actionforum.com/general/faq.html#1
"How can I make sure someone at MoveOn reads my post ? All comments are read at least twice."
So, contrary to MoveOn's statement that it never saw the hate speech, its own FAQ page says the moderators read each post (including the hate speech) twice.
Now, since you were asking for examples of what was actually posted at the Action Forum (the link is where the posting was, the Action Forum is no longer online),
http://www.actionforum.com/forum/scores.html?&comment_id=304961
Israel has 8,000 Palestinian prisoners, Hezbollah and Hamas has 3 Israeli prisoners.
Israel is killing civilians and their children with our missiles and has never stopped stealing Palestinian land, farms, and precious aquifers.
Removing all Israeli obsessed Jews from congress would stop a lot of killing. 12 of 14 MoveOn-ers voted to AGREE with this
Note that the "Israeli obsessed Jews" in question are almost all Democrats, and mostly liberal Democrats. Tom Lantos, another liberal Democrat, was attacked as follows:
http://www.actionforum.com/forum/scores.html?comment_id=311900
Congressman Tom Lantos told PM Olmert of Israel that he wants to freeze the $ 230 million U.S. aid package to Lebanon. Lantos is the ranking democrat on the House Foreign Relations Comte. Lantos said, "The [Lebanese] aid package should be witheld until the Lebanese government displays responsibility". Responsibility ? Israel is guilty of war crimes in their cowardely attack on Lebanon and the whining, arrogant Jew wants Lebanon to demonstrate responsibility ! This is another example of how many Jews/Zioniosts in our Congress use the U.S. for their own greedy purposes. DUMP ISRAEL. (14 out of 17 voted to AGREE with this.)
Even if you don't like Condoleeza Rice's and Colin Powell's politics, I think you will agree that bringing their skin color into the argument was uncalled for:
http://www.actionforum.com/forum/scores.html?comment_id=276832
Thanks Harry, for telling it like it is. Rice and Powell ARE "house slaves". And the "Republicans ARE like the Jews who worked for Hitler". And Shrub IS "a tyrant and a terrorist". Harry, we need people like you in Congress. (12 of 15 voted to AGREE with this)
The problem, of course, is not criticism of the U.S.'s Middle East policies, or of Rice's and Powell's politics, but the use of "Jew" as an epithet and racial slurs like "house slave." What was said about Catholics was just as bad. In any event, if I am just making all this up, why is MoveOn's Action Forum still offline? As you will find by clicking on the Action Forum links (except for the FAQ page link, which still works), you will see that the Action Forum is still "on vacation" until "after the election," and it is now five months "after the election."
Wingy,
I'm not sure I get it. The fact that some racists post some comments on a message board is supposed to tell us something significant about the entire organization?
If you can come up with some substantive reasons why someone shouldn't support Obama, go for it. Otherwise, really, you're wasting your time.
Vic,
As for the actual content of your post - here's a scarey thought: I'm thinking of sending a contribution to Obama also.
Is there no way to edit comments on this new system (like, for example, when you stupidly misspell simple words like "scary?")
Dumplingeater wrote, "I'm not sure I get it. The fact that some racists post some comments on a message board is supposed to tell us something significant about the entire organization?"
The fact that racists post comments on a message board does not, by itself, make the organization a hate group. It is the fact that MoveOn.org exercised editorial control (that is the key phrase) in favor of the hate speech that makes MoveOn.org (arguably) a hate organization, plus the fact that MoveOn is directly responsible for the anti-Catholic hate cartoon.
Wingy,
It's not a hate group, and it's not an anti-Catholic group, and it's not a racist group, and it's not an anti-semitic group.
Look, I don't have much to do with MoveOn because I think that it uses a lot of shallow rhetoric and I was disappointed with it's support of mainstream Dem cadidates - but it is what it is: a bunch of lefties that are trying to advance progressive policies. The fact that the group includes some conspiracy theorists and some people I completely disagree with doesn't mean much of anything in the larger picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_group
MoveOn.org does not meet the first definition of a hate group, but it meets the second:
"...or that supports and publishes assertions and argumentation characteristic of hate groups without necessarily explicitly advocating such hate or violence that otherwise characterize hate groups."
In other words (except for the derogatory cartoon of the Pope), MoveOn.org did not itself create hate speech, but it knowingly and willfully exercised editorial control in favor of hate speech by others.
If you still don't buy the hate group characterization, what about Cindy Sheehan's assertion that MoveOn fabricated a poll and misrepresented its members?
Wow I feel like Atrios! He'll just post something like "i'm going to take a dump" and get 465 comments. I don't think there's a way to edit comments, which is stupid. Don't worry, we don't sweat your spelling mistakes. At least Obama is providing a challenge, right? I think the country could use a consensus builder at this point. The far right needs to be neutralized, and Hilary is just going to get them super-riled up.
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